Roman Dobrokhotov: Good afternoon! With you stream "Revolver" on the channel The Insider Live. My name is Roman Dobrokhotov, I am the editor-in-chief of The Insider. And today our guest is Alexander Nevzorov, who was sentenced just a couple of days ago to 8 years in prison for telling the truth about the Russian army. In this sense, Alexander and I are colleagues. I am convicted under the same article. Rather, a criminal case was opened against me, I didn’t really follow. Probably, I, too, have already been convicted, imprisoned, shot, buried, and so on. One way or another, today our stream has such a slightly convict way of life. Alexander, good evening! Or, as it is supposed to be said now – evening in the hut?
Alexander Nevzorov: Yes.
Roman Dobrokhotov: Actually, as I understand it, the whole point of this whole event with absentee arrests, convictions, and so on is that we never return to Russia. Accordingly, my first question is: When will Alexander Nevzorov return to Russia?
Alexander Nevzorov: Well, in general, I do not intend to return. In some big serious sense, I personally will not go back there. The fact that I may someday have to go there in order to settle some scores and settle some cases – this cannot be ruled out. But not the slightest desire to return to Russia and not the slightest intention, even after the death of Putin, even after the nationwide enlightenment and rejoicing, even after all those who tried to stop this war and spoke the truth about it, will be elevated to the rank of national heroes, as We have seen this many times in the example of perestroika and the return of all those who were expelled and squeezed out of the country in Soviet times – even then I will not return.
That is, I will no longer live in this country and do not want to have anything to do with it. She is incorrigible, she is incurable. And even that epiphany, even that change in the situation, which is inevitable and which will be – unfortunately, it will be just as fake as there was a change in mood in the 90s, as in general there was a lot of things in her unfortunate history. She is incorrigible.
Roman Dobrokhotov: What then prevents Russians from joining the friendly community of democratic countries, as the countries of Eastern Europe did after the collapse of the Soviet Union? Is there something in the Russians that fundamentally prevents us from becoming a normal part of civilization?
Alexander Nevzorov: Well, you ask me the same question that I was asked, for example, during my last Canadian tour, huge halls. You ask me the same question that I get asked all the time, as if I know the answer to it.
I have an answer to it, but it suits no one and no one agrees with it. I explain that, of course, to explain this whole wild situation, this cyclical inevitable return of evil, this immutability of the uprising from the graves of ghouls and their seizure of power, this return of blood, this return of repressions for many centuries … Because Russia has always been a dictatorship. It was a dictatorship under the Romanovs, it was a dictatorship under the scoop, it is a dictatorship now. That is, we see that a certain property works all the time, a certain curse works all the time.
What is the bearer of this curse? Of course, the Russian people are no different from any other people on earth. The statement that they have some special damage or features of the genome, firstly, is delusional in itself from the point of view of genetics and cannot be discussed. And for the completely stupid, I will explain that, for example, the same picture of Bucha that we recently had – we know that the participants in the crimes that were happening in Bucha were people far from only Russians by passport and by their ethnographic postscript. Everyone was there. And we see that absolutely everyone – Caucasians, Buryats, Tungus, Chukchi, Ossetians, Russians, Jews – is united by something much more mundane and prosaic than the genome.
I suspect, of course, that this is Russian culture. That she looks so cute, she seems to be about some kind of endless suffering, sobbing, aha, ooh, she seems to be just depressive and such a deadly culture. But in fact, this deepest racism, this chauvinism, this conviction in one's own right to rape, trample, decide the fate of peoples, burn villages, conquer cities, burn entire countries – I think that culture is still the carrier of this property.
I have no other explanation. Orthodoxy cannot be an explanation here, because Orthodoxy exists in Bulgaria, Orthodoxy exists in Greece, Orthodoxy exists in a mass of countries. And we know that in reality Orthodoxy in Russia, despite all its ugliness, is rather formal. It doesn't have the same effect on the brain that culture probably does.
Roman Dobrokhotov: But what is meant by your word “culture”? It is unlikely that those sadists in Bucha that we saw went berserk because they re-read Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, their eyes became bloodshot and they went to rape Ukrainian girls and take TV sets out of Ukrainian houses. Moreover, if you read, in fact, the same Tolstoy, then it is difficult to look for a greater pacifist in world literature. Yes, and in Dostoevsky, too, one can hardly find anything justifying murders, violence, lies, and everything that we see in the current regime. This means that culture is not equal to Russian classical literature. What then?
Alexander Nevzorov: No, you are vulgarizing. First, we can find anything in Tolstoy. We can justify the wildest lies and the wildest lies about the War of 1812. We see an absolutely soviet, such Gerasimov, Shoigov lie about the Battle of Borodino. We now know that it was a losing battle. That retreating, Kutuzov left 30 thousand wounded on the roadsides and in half-burnt villages, leaving them at the mercy of the winner. And retreating in a panic, in flight, he composed a victorious report to the king that this was Victoria. We know that Tolstoy, who wrote War and Peace, wrote a phenomenally false work that worked and in many ways works precisely as a carrier of the same chauvinism.
As for Dostoevsky, who in its purest form is the ideologist of Orthodox fascism in absolutely all of his works to one degree or another, including the "Diary of a Writer", including the fact that it was he who once introduced both "Jewish" and "Polish", and “Khokhlishka”, if you carefully re-read his Diaries of a Writer, so popular at that time.
Then this idea of the chosen people. After all, this idea was also transmitted precisely by Dostoevsky. Dostoevsky is exceptionally false and exclusively, I would say, a pathological nit, which directly broadcasts all this. He created the image of a sufferer and compassionate. In fact, underneath all this is still the deepest conviction in the superiority of the nation, people, race – the Russian race – over the rest of the world. And that's not going anywhere either.
And the rest of Russian culture either sang along with this, or it was a victim, which by default always recognized the right of power, recognized the right of any regime, even Alexander, even Nikolaev, no matter what, to mock their own people as it pleases. This is a unique culture in this sense. It's just that no one considered her as such. Now, if you have an explanation of what is the carrier of those properties that provide the return of a nightmare, a cyclic return, tell me.
Roman Dobrokhotov: I have a hypothesis. I think that the influence of Russian classical literature is still unlikely here, because, firstly, I do not see the same thing in Dostoevsky and Tolstoy. That is, I see, for example, how in Dostoevsky's "Demons" the idea of God's chosen people is ridiculed. I see numerous articles by Tolstoy where he says that patriotism is a lie and a pretext for mass murder. But even assuming…
Alexander Nevzorov: Stop, wait. Let's put some dots here. First, let's take the novel "Demons" that you mentioned, and replace the surname of the younger Verkhovensky with the surname Navalny. We will see an absolutely ordered police obscurantist novel aimed at completely discrediting any free thought, at declaring any people who are looking for a European model of behavior and life as demons, freaks, perverts. Didn't it occur to you that this is exactly what it is?
And what you are saying about Tolstoy, you are talking about late Tolstoy, when Tolstoy ceased to be the entertainment of all Rus' and remained a writer for a very small sect of Tolstoy. These are later, almost dying articles. And before that, he was doing something completely different. And his influence… If he wrote only "Critique of Dogmatic Theology", "What is My Faith", if he wrote anti-patriotic articles, he, believe me, would not be known to anyone.
Roman Dobrokhotov: I agree that in Tolstoy, as in any classical author, you can find heroes with any ideology, and everyone will find a nice one. But, by the way, if we are talking about Verkhovensky Jr. in Possessed, then who said that we should try on under the name Navalny, and not under the name Girkin-Strelkov, for example? Because his views are…
Alexander Nevzorov: No, I do not agree with you. Because Girkin-Strelkov is not obsessed with liberal, revolutionary, changeful ideas. He is not sick of the West. He does not use the names Vogt and Moleschott. He is not aspiring to European science. He does not talk about freedom and the necessary reformatting of Russia. Girkin is just talking about completely different things, trying to drive this Russia back into caves, chicken huts, bast shoes, to icons and prostrations. Well my friend!
Roman Dobrokhotov: No, the main idea of Verkhovensky Jr., if you read it carefully, he says in plain text that these European ideas are of little interest to him. He is interested in the fact that, under the pretext of these ideas, he can create many cells and sacrifice a huge number of people in order to achieve absolute power. That is, he is an absolute cynic in this work. Personally, I didn’t see a parody of Navalny there. But let's not go too deep.
Alexander Nevzorov: Yes, let's not. There could be a billion opinions here. We see disease carriers. We know the disease is there.
Roman Dobrokhotov: But we, people who have read Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, are not going to slaughter Ukrainians in Bucha. And some Ochur-Suge Mongush from the Akhmat battalion, who cut off the genitals of a Ukrainian prisoner who went to cut Ukrainian soldiers, obviously read Dostoevsky and Tolstoy, if he read it very superficially, I suspect. Maybe he is a great intellectual, but I strongly doubt it.
Alexander Nevzorov: Not true. He executes the order of those who are absolutely under the spell and in the power of that crazy Russian, Russian idea, which, in fact, started this war. We see that this Putin is sick and obsessed with the very set of nonsense that goes back to your favorite Dostoevsky, to the nonsense about the Third Rome. We understand who these guys are … They are just pieces of meat moving with weapons in their hands. But they were sent there and given the right to shoot them by their commanders, who cannot in any way be suspected of being unaffected by Russian culture.
Roman Dobrokhotov: Just a very interesting moment. Because if we are talking about Putin and what is going on in his head, then for a long time, when Putin created this ideological myth about himself, he was built around the concept of such a Chekist-patriot. Although we didn’t particularly know about any of Putin’s KGB exploits, except that he interrogated dissidents there and helped to detain them, we created the image of such a person with a cold head, clean hands, and so on.
This year, we saw the real face of Putin's government, when, speaking of our prison theme, with which we started, Prigozhin turned out to be more important than Shoigu, and now this hair-drying has become part of the official lexicon. Not only at Prigozhin’s, even at the UN Security Council we see the Russian representative say: “Look me in the eye!” and so on.
That is, we just saw the new Putin. I think that maybe Putin has always been like this from the beginning. After all, he was not only connected with the Chekists. He was – and you know this better than I – closely associated with the mafia in St. Petersburg, even when he worked in the mayor's office. I communicated with all of them, including Kumarin, Traber and so on, helped them get assets like the St. Petersburg Oil Terminal and so on. You also communicated with all these St. Petersburg authorities. Maybe Putin really grows mentally from there and he just revealed himself this year for real?
Alexander Nevzorov: No, I absolutely disagree. The fact is that knowing quite well the design of the Chekist brains and their features, I can easily calculate the monstrous influence on these brains of precisely the very conspiracy racist chauvinistic nonsense that he now demonstrates literally in every sentence. I have always said that the brain of a Chekist is a very easy prey for priests. You know, there was such a General Purkov in the State Security Committee. It was just the 90s, he was in charge. And one of his deputies categorically forbade the investigators to listen to their suspects. Do you know why?
Roman Dobrokhotov: Well, I guess about it, yes.
Alexander Nevzorov: The defendant had the right to say only “yes” or “no”. If the defendant began to speak, the investigator was obliged to interrupt the interrogation or leave the office. Because they fell very much under the influence of their victims – these intellectuals, who were then obsessed in many respects with the crazy ideas of the “power”, “Russia that we have lost”, the father-tsar, the White Guard, Orthodoxy. The Chekists very quickly adopted this nonsense from them. And since they were still participating in searches, confiscated literature, they began to get acquainted with the topic and very quickly went crazy.
The fact is that all this Orthodox-racist nonsense about the chosenness of the country and its right to rape and kill neighboring peoples at its own discretion, which is the key at the moment, is, after all, everything is directly taken from there. After all, Putin is now insisting on his right, on Russia's right to do whatever it wants, with the world, with its neighbors, only on the grounds that Russia is some kind of special country, endowed from above with some special rights.
Roman Dobrokhotov: Yes, but this idea was, probably, more or less in every state, including the European one.
Alexander Nevzorov: Yes, it backfired somewhere with fascism, somewhere with softer fascism, somewhere with tougher fascism. But they always went through it and became normal. They managed to renounce their terrible past and create normal societies. And here we see a constant return. We see a constant cycle, we see repetition.
Roman Dobrokhotov: Yes, but it seems to me that the fundamental difference between Russia, if we look at history and compare it with the history of German, French, Japanese, and so on, is not fascism itself and all sorts of imperialist ideas of this kind that everyone had at a certain stage , but just the fact that a completely frank urka who made money by robbing women on the street, taking off their earrings and boots – Prigozhin – becomes practically an official representative of the state and a system-forming link, and that thieves are becoming part of the language and the Kremlin, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I do not see anything similar either in European or Asian history over the past hundreds of years. It seems to me that this is a unique historical phenomenon that we are now experiencing.
Alexander Nevzorov: No, you just don't understand that there is no more Russia. After all, Russia is what? Russia is a collection of myths. This is a bunch of lies. This is a set of ghosts and illusions. This is an illusion of greatness, this is an illusion of a heavenly, granted right from above. This is an illusion of harmony, purity and spiritual aspirations. This is a set of illusions. And now all these illusions are killed, perished and buried in sand pits in Bucha along with the corpses of Ukrainian children. We see that everything has collapsed, and on these ruins, on these ruins, Prigozhin jumps out in a completely natural way.
And Prigozhin is Putin's last hope. Another thing is that he is ready to sacrifice this sparkling high image of the empire with double-headed eagles, triumphal arches, epaulettes, aiguillettes, mustaches, partings, officer honor. He's willing to sacrifice it just to win this damned war.
Roman Dobrokhotov: Yes, but here, it seems to me, there is a certain intellectual trap in that many people judge the thinking of the majority of Russians by Putin and his ideology. As if someone really delegated to Putin the right to speak for all Russians. As if he was really chosen in a real competitive election and the Russians told him: “Yes, what you say is that we think the same way.”
But look what they do to those people who dare to doubt the correctness of the ideology. Someone is arrested in absentia, like us, someone quite in person, like the conditional Kara-Murza, Mikhail Krieger, Yashin, and so on. Why, in general, can we attribute to the Russians, to Russian culture, these crazy ideas that are now being broadcast on behalf of Putin, Prigogine and all this gop company?
Alexander Nevzorov: We can. We can and, moreover, we must. Because one thing is speculation and all sorts of intellectual escapades, another thing is the reality with which we are dealing. We see that nothing prevents Putin from waging war. We know that for any dictator, for any occupier, for any deranged ruler, schizophrenic and invader, his main base of support and his foundation is in his so-called home country. And we see that there is no realistic resistance to Putin at the moment. We understand that yes, maybe 3% of schizophrenic fanatics are Putinists and big fans of war. But we see that all the other 97% are silent. And this silence is also complicity in the war.
The ones you're talking about are units. Those who have a slightly lower media rank, but just as wonderful and courageous people who are actually sitting in prisons now – and that magnificent stoker-stoker from near Vologda, and the St. Petersburg girl Sasha Skochilenko, and probably 3-4 more, even 5 dozen great people – well, listen, that's 5 dozen for 140 million. That is, we are talking about the fact that all the actions of Putin, in fact, are carried out with the absolute knowledge and approval of the people. After all, as I absolutely rightly noted in my telegram channel … Subscribe, by the way. Are you subscribed?
Roman Dobrokhotov: No, to be honest, but maybe I will subscribe.
Alexander Nevzorov: That's a disgrace. Subscribe. I quite rightly noted, and it was a very accurate remark, that the Russians are not afraid to find out the truth about Bucha, and Mariupol, and about the latest rocket attacks on residential buildings, and in general about all crimes. They are afraid of only one thing – that it will become well known, that they know this truth. And now, really, at the level of the Internet, and at the level of word of mouth, and at the level of whispers in schools and in lines, nothing …
Remember, even a year later everyone knew the truth about the Afghan war, although then there were even fewer communication opportunities. Everyone knew about what was happening during the invasion of Czechoslovakia, although then there really was nothing at all. So I suspect they know it all.
Roman Dobrokhotov: Yes, but the Germans also knew about what was happening in the concentration camps. They knew that in fact Poland did not attack Germany. And also, except for a small part of some kind of underground resistance, no one came out to protest simply because it was scary, dangerous, and people were afraid. However, even if we hold them responsible…
Alexander Nevzorov: No, wait. You said an important thing, let me contradict you. I have great respect for you, but here you are a little wrong. Tell me, how many Germans were convicted for anti-Hitler activities between 1939 and 1945?
Roman Dobrokhotov: Well, first of all, these are slightly different periods here. But good…
Alexander Nevzorov: 800 thousand. 140 thousand were exterminated to one degree or another. 3 programs were involved in succession, including the worst “Nacht und Nebel” (“Darkness and Gloom” or “Darkness and Obscurity”), when the most iconic characters of the German nation were specially destroyed, who were not only against the war – they were not enough for her. And yet, what is there to say? 18 assassination attempts on Hitler. Tell me at least one assassination attempt on Putin.
Roman Dobrokhotov: But if we take even the first year of the war, how many cases did OVD-info count, initiated for all kinds of protests and for fakes about the army? Also tens of thousands.
Alexander Nevzorov: No, not tens of thousands. No matter how many it counts, it has a different name, this is the number. This quantity is called insufficient. Not enough to change anything. Therefore, we see that, of course, Hitler's Germany resisted Hitlerism more actively than Putin's Russia is now resisting Putin. And this is an immutable, alas, very unpleasant fact.
Roman Dobrokhotov: Returning to the issue of ideology, values and other things that can be the driver of such fascist behavior of the state. Here I have another hypothesis, which is now shared, as I see it, by many professional psychiatrists – that Putin is driven not so much by some special values, but by his simple psychiatric diagnosis, namely psychopathy. And if you look at Putin precisely as a psychopath obsessed with power, many things become much more rational.
Because when we hear objections that why would Putin attack Ukraine at all, if it did not particularly help him gain a foothold in power and, in general, it was not politically necessary, if we look at Putin as a psychopath, it turns out that everything is much easier. Because we don’t ask a maniac-rapist the question: “Why did you go rape and stab this girl if you could meet her on Tinder and it wouldn’t threaten you? You would have sex and you wouldn't have anything wrong with it." It's a stupid question, because the psychopath enjoys risk, he enjoys violence, sadism. And maybe in that sense…
Alexander Nevzorov: Let me object. First, let's rehabilitate the word "psychopath". Psychopath is not a psychiatric term for any illness. A psychopath is not a diagnosis, it is not a perversion, it is not dementia. This is just a fixation of a certain set of not pathological, but peculiar properties of character and personality.
Putin is probably completely different. He doesn't look like a psychopath. He can talk about other, other, let's say, significant pathologies that are already really under the jurisdiction of psychiatry. At least I know this point of view.
But I think that there are diseases, my friend, you understand, not only of physiological origin. Diseases are of ideological origin. And it seems that, at first glance, people who do not have any physiological problems of the brain, with absolutely healthy hemispheres and subcortical structures, people demonstrate psychiatrically pathological behavior if they are confessors of views that are extremely schizophrenic in nature.
We see this in the example of all religious fanatics. We see this in the example of the so-called martyrs. We see this in the example of most commanders and military leaders of the past, and of the present too. These people are convinced of their right precisely because there is an ideology that somehow delegated this right to them. This ideology, in the presence of a small intellect, in the presence of little life experience, can really mold any pathological behavior. In this case, the brain, directly the brain of the character will be healthy.
Roman Dobrokhotov: Theoretically, this is probably possible. But then we would see some predictable and understandable interpretation of Putin's actions from the point of view of some ideology. But no ideology…
Alexander Nevzorov: We see great. We discover Ivan Ilyin, we discover Dostoevsky. “Behold, be, for this people is a God-bearer. And the peoples shy away, and yield, and keep aloof, and they see how Rus is rushing past them and on them. What else do you need?
Roman Dobrokhotov: No, let's take the fascist ideology – even, suppose, the sincere ideology that Putin shares and believes that he himself is such a God-chosen ruler. But already at the moment of February 24, it seems to me, it was obvious that this increment of land would not really take place. I mean, if you take the psychiatric diagnosis out of the equation, if you take out the sadistic pleasure…
Alexander Nevzorov: Leave it debatable. We can not. In order to either remove or hang a psychiatric diagnosis, we would need him for a couple of weeks in the clinic with the possibility of all tests, with the possibility of observing behavior that is not subject to influence. I mean, it's serious work.
Roman Dobrokhotov: Still, firstly, we watch Putin every day, just as we don’t even watch many family members. That is, we know more or less everything about him. We've been watching for 20 years. And if psychiatrists can do about homicidal maniacs according to their behavior, at the request of the investigators, they can analyze their psychiatric state even on the basis of some evidence …
Alexander Nevzorov: Without contact, without examination, without special procedures, without immersion in some special ones … In order not to go deep, not to hang all this medical noodles on our viewers' ears, I try to speak, let's say, in the most understandable way. No, believe me, not a single responsible serious psychiatrist on the basis of a television picture of rehearsed, edited behavior, which was, let's say, normalized by a large number of psychologists, PR people, which was scheduled and very clearly defined from the very beginning – not a single self-respecting psychiatrist, make a diagnosis will not be.
Roman Dobrokhotov: No, of course, it is always better to have access to the patient. But we know examples: in many countries, quite officially, psychiatrists work with police officers when they need to draw up a psychiatric portrait of a serial killer. There is quite a bit of evidence, but you need to understand and predict his logic of behavior. And for this you need a professional doctor who understands that obviously we are talking about some kind of deviation. But about what exactly – this needs to be understood for the investigation.
I'll just give a couple of examples now. We just read Putin's book "In the First Person". There is a story about how some secretary comes to Putin and tells that his beloved dog has died. And Putin does not have a single muscle moving on his face. He says, "I see," and continues to work. She speaks with delight. And, she asks him: “Probably someone has already reported this to you?” And he says: “No, you are the first person I heard this from,” and continues to work calmly. And then she tells everyone that this man is – how he knows how to concentrate, what will he has, that there were no emotions on his face. And when a psychiatrist reads the same lines, he says: “Look, this is the most typical picture of a classic psychopath.”
Alexander Nevzorov: No, you're wrong. It's not about that. The fact is that self-control, endurance is important and certainly necessary for every person. You know, if I had been told some tragic and extremely painful news that shattered my brain, then, perhaps, in front of some secretary, I would also continue to write in cold blood, raising my eyes to her once. I never allow myself to show emotions. Probably, this is a St. Petersburg trait. And in this case, I also see no reason to draw conclusions based on this reaction.
Roman Dobrokhotov: But if we look at all these 20 years of experience of our contact with the patient, then a huge number of things fall into place. For example, the poisoning of Navalny, Kara-Murza, and especially Dmitry Bykov, who certainly did not threaten the political system in any way at that moment. I do not see any rational explanation for the attempt on Bykov's life with the help of chemical weapons, but I see an excellent psychiatric explanation. If I were a person enjoying my power, simply getting erotic pleasure from eliminating my enemies, I would definitely eliminate them with the help of a “newbie” and I would definitely eliminate those people who I just don’t like because they joked about me. This is a classic psychiatric thing, not a political one. Is not it?
Alexander Nevzorov: This is not necessarily psychiatric. Regarding the poisoning of Bykov, as you know, I did not believe in it for a very long time, but Grozev convinced me through Yulia Latynina. I admit that yes, it most likely really was a poisoning. And this poisoning has no rational explanation. I am guilty in many respects before Dima that I joked so evilly about this poisoning, saying that in fact the cause was 184 escalopes, and not even a small dose of poison at all. I was most likely wrong.
Understand, already now, when we see to what extent Putin easily destroys tens of thousands of people, without thinking about what he is doing, I would not rake everything so directly into psychiatry. I think that he is guided by the same ideas that the highest destiny of a Russian person, the highest destiny of a Russian is to die, fulfilling the will of the tsar, fulfilling the will of the emperor, to die in the name of the triumph of ideas and the greatness of the country. He can quite sincerely believe that yes, this is really a great happiness for those people who would still die from drugs, vodka, would get into an accident. Here he demonstrates non-psychiatric behavior. Here, just his pathology has an absolutely conditioned reflex external cultural basis and origin from external cultural factors. That's how they, these tsars, have always been brought up in Russia.
Roman Dobrokhotov: Well, we talk a lot about the reasons for everything that is happening, but we have not yet said anything about what, in fact, can be done with all this. That is, it is clear that now everyone supports Ukraine in the war. But if you talk to the Ukrainians themselves, they, of course, are not really worried about the fate of Russia. They need Russia to simply remove its tentacles from Ukrainian territory, including from Crimea and Donbass, and what will happen to Russia next is completely unimportant to them.
Alexander Nevzorov: Very important. They are well aware that the fate of a huge number of Ukrainians who are now dying in battles, who are now dying under rocket fire, depends on how much the collapse of the dictatorship is possible in Russia, a change in sentiment is possible. Because Putin has no other basis than national unity, besides rallying around schizophrenic ideas.
That is why I am prescribed a period of 8 years. That is why in the coming days the same term will be given to Nika Belotserkovskaya. That is why you have the same term. Because they are terribly afraid of the destruction of this foundation, they are afraid of serious anti-war sentiments. Because any unrest, any anti-war sentiment will immediately undermine all their possibilities.
After all, pay attention: experiencing a serious shortage of combat and, in general, any combat units, Putin does not let go anywhere half a million beefy, stupid, completely encephalic smooth-brained redguards of the Russian Guard, trained, as it were, in the semblance of some kind of military operations. No, only scraps go there from the Russian Guard to the front. Basically, it goes every second-rate element. But those who should crush the protests – they are all here, at hand, all half a million people, all these hogs. That is, we understand that he is still afraid, and very much afraid.
Roman Dobrokhotov: The question is what can be done. That is, it is understandable when we say to the West: “Give more weapons,” but the Ukrainians will not go to the Kremlin with tanks, most likely, at least they do not show such a desire at the moment. There are 140 million Russians inside the country. There is a global community. There are some sanctions that do not work in any way. What, in principle, can be done to crush this reptile to the end, to such an extent that some semblance of freedom and the rule of law really return?
Alexander Nevzorov: You see, look, Zelensky. Beautiful, delightful Zelensky. He declared that the goal of Ukraine is to clean up the territory of Ukraine, including the Donbass and Crimea, to squeeze out these orc gangs to hell there, on their territory. And that is what victory is.
I'm probably going to risk disagreeing here, with all due respect to Zelensky. The fact is that a rabid dog that has been kicked out over the fence does not cease to be rabid and does not lose its claim to the right to bite and bite. I think that this extrusion and cleansing of the territory will not be a victory. It will be a very easy win. It will be a formal military victory. Yes, Ukraine is absolutely able to win it, and will win it, and quite soon. But that won't solve the situation. Because in order to resolve it, Russia needs to pull out its poisonous nuclear teeth. it needs to be disarmed.
Roman Dobrokhotov: So what is the scenario then?
Alexander Nevzorov: My friend, this is a terrible long-term scenario of non-stop disasters, problems, collapses, wars, bloodshed. It won't be long before we all return, if we ever return at all, to the fact that life can be cloudless, sweet, without explosions, blood, violence and arrests. No, Putin is an idiot. He opened Pandora's box. Once in the reactor control unit, he began to press buttons, the meaning of which he did not understand at all, and brought to life those reactions, those processes that he himself would never be able to stop.
I am afraid that we have all entered an extremely difficult time, and in this small – small by the standards of the planet – funnel of the Ukrainian war, more and more countries, new and new circumstances will be sucked in. That is, simply squeezing the orcs out of the state border of Ukraine, unfortunately, will now only be a formal solution to the issue.
Roman Dobrokhotov: We have specific historical examples of how states ceased to be dictatorships and became rule-of-law states. By and large, they branch into two scenario trees. Один случай — это военная оккупация, как в случае с Германией, Италией Японией (есть еще другие примеры). Либо это примеры революций или гражданских войн, когда основной субъект изменений был внутри страны. Что больше похоже на реальность для российского будущего?
Александр Невзоров: Ты знаешь, я думаю, что здесь, возможно, будут пущены в ход все варианты. Потому что Россия — это тот гнойник мира, который, в общем, необходимо вылечить и который необходимо полностью переформатировать. Который доказал свою опасность, доказал свое нежелание соучаствовать в цивилизационном процессе, свою неспособность изобретать, строить. Я имею в виду, строить не бизнес-центры или супермаркеты, а строить в общечеловеческом смысле — строить здание цивилизации. Что Россия все равно будет одержима теми бредовыми идеями, которые лежат в основе ее культуры и которые никуда и никогда не денутся.
Потому что у этой русской культуры, как выясняется, везде очень много защитников. Никто не хочет понять, что всякое явление должно иметь свое отчетливое и понятное происхождение. Всем кажется, что Толстой — это про пацифизм и гуманизм, Достоевский — это про сострадание, а Лермонтов — это про то, как хорошо в чеченских селах улыбнуться знакомому чеченцу или его девушке.
Мы все всё понимаем. И я боюсь, что непосредственно носитель этого зла останется в неприкосновенности. Вылупятся новые яйца, из яиц вылупятся новые змеи, они вырастут, станут трех- и пятиглавыми и снова поползут в сторону цивилизации с тем, чтобы ее все-таки загрызть.
Роман Доброхотов: Но все-таки, если был бы тотализатор и можно было бы просто оценить вероятности разных сценариев, все-таки Путин скорее умрет своей смертью от старости, как его отец, в 80 чем-то лет? Или он будет арестован международной коалицией, отвезен в Гаагу после военной оккупации и осужден как военный преступник? Либо он, как Каддафи, кончит жизнь на Красной площади, растерзанный толпой, с куском арматуры в заднице? Это три совершенно разных сценария, несовместимых друг с другом. Какой-то из них надо выбирать.
Александр Невзоров: Нет, есть 30 сценариев, скажем так. Любой из них высоковероятностен. И вместе с тем сценария, о котором мы могли бы сказать, что он наиболее вероятностен, мы не можем найти. Потому что малейшие изменения, малейшие подвижки — позор на фронте, очередное отступление, какой-нибудь дикий факт, чья-нибудь жуткая и воспламеняющая народ смерть или судьба — все эти факторы могут внести изменения в политическую, военную и правоохранительную картину.
И мы не можем предсказать все факторы. Мы здесь, к сожалению, обречены наблюдать, последовательно созерцать и верно оценивать происходящее, но возможность сколько бы то ни было серьезного прогноза, увы, сейчас выключена. Можно спрогнозировать только одно — что военная победа Украины будет. Да, это можно.
Роман Доброхотов: Просто если исходить из того, что некая культурная основа, которая передается из поколения в поколение, останется и после смены власти, это картина, сильно демотивирующая самих же россиян, да и мировое сообщество. Получается тогда, какой смысл вообще пускать под откос поезда и бросать бутылки с зажигательной смесью в военкоматы, если власть все равно реинкарнируется на этой территории каким-то образом?
Александр Невзоров: Совершенно верно. Но не забывай про храбрецов и романтиков. Не забывай про людей, которые сумели преодолеть эту гравитацию, это дикое притяжение мифов о России, о ее культуре, о ее особых правах на этой планете. Да, тоже есть такие люди, которые послушались не Толстого и Достоевского, а послушались, не знаю, Байрона и Альфреда Мюссе, которые приняли западную культуру и западные стили представлений о жизни. Да, скажем так, есть и такие. Но их бесконечно мало и погоды они пока не делают.
Роман Доброхотов: Но существует вообще сценарий, при котором гравитацию смогут преодолеть не отдельные интеллигенты, а общество? То есть может быть какой-то маловероятный, 1% сценарий, но при котором новая власть сделает что-то, и это такие новые правила игры и институты, в результате которых новое поколение оказывается денацифицировано и демилитаризовано ментально и вырывается из этого притяжения?
Александр Невзоров: А зачем этому новому обществу тогда название «Россия»? Зачем этому новому обществу ее история? Зачем новому обществу эти мифы и культ всего того, чем является историческая и современная Россия? Зачем этому новому обществу все это? Тогда это будет уже совершенно другая страна.
Роман Доброхотов: Я имею в виду, лично для меня интересен, любопытен вопрос: на этой территории те 140 миллионов, огромное количество разных народов, национальностей и так далее хотят иметь какое-то будущее? Они хотят понимать, существует ли последовательность действий и изменения институтов, в результате которой у них, на их территории будет правовое государство для их детей и внуков?
Александр Невзоров: Они не хотят иметь будущее. Они не хотят иметь правовое государство. Они ненавидят право. Они ненавидят прогресс. Они ненавидят комфорт, современность. Потому что культура, которая их воспитала, которая растворена во всем — не только в школьной программе, не только в особых фильмах, не только в культе победобесия, «бессмертных полков», бесконечного расковыривания раны с блокадой, бесконечного расковыривания всей исторической лжи, начиная с вранья о «Варяге» и продолжая 28 панфиловцами — ведь ничего другого нет. Вот они не хотят. И мы сейчас видим, что они не хотят и своей роли в этой ситуации. Потому что каждый промолчавший, каждой струсивший — это военный преступник. И мы сейчас имеем сотню миллионов военных преступников как минимум.
Немцам для того, чтобы преодолеть вот эту жуть, которую открыл в них и возбудил Гитлер… При том, что мы понимаем, что немецкая культура — ведь она же тоже далеко не так безобидна. И что гитлеризм и нацизм возникли из работ Гейне, Гете. Как ни странно, из работ, очень националистических и шовинистических, братьев Гримм. Мы их знаем по сказкам, но в реальности братья Гримм писали и создавали чудовищно нацистские, расистские вещи, которые тогда так не оценивались — это было просто, скажем так, воспринято как некое «национальное самосознание».
И потом не забывай, что есть всякие еще Гегели, есть все остальное. Более того, если мы посмотрим внимательно, мы увидим, что из всех инквизиций мира самой свирепой инквизицией была не испанская, как все предполагают, а именно германская. Более того, если мы откроем «Malleus Maleficarum», «Молот ведьм», то мы увидим, что и Шпренгер, и Инститорис оба немцы — люди, которые составили самую чудовищную, наверное, из всех книг в истории человечества; книгу, которая на протяжении многих веков была основой, учебником того, как нужно убивать и пытать женщин.
Роман Доброхотов: Да, все же получается, вывод о том, что россиянам не нужно правовое государство и им нужно убивать, крушить, насиловать, властвовать, строится только на том, что мы не видим, как эти несчастные пенсионерки из Ивановской области идут вешать политруков на фонарях своих деревень. Мне кажется, мы слишком много требуем.
Александр Невзоров: Сложно, конечно, переориентировать в другую сторону. Но это серьезная большая политическая работа, которую делать некому.
Роман Доброхотов: Я просто хотел выйти…
Александр Невзоров: Давай потихонечку заканчивать, потому что мне сейчас еще надо будет ехать в свою деревню. а тут извилистые горные дороги, и у нас снежок.
Роман Доброхотов: Да, я просто хотел выйти на позитивную ноту в конце. Но будем считать тот факт, что ярость русского народа все-таки можно направить в другую сторону, оптимистическим выводом, многообещающим для нас всех.
Александр Невзоров: Весьма, дорогой друг.
Роман Доброхотов: И я благодарю наших зрителей за то, что вы смотрели очередной подкаст.
Александр Невзоров: Слава Украине!
Роман Доброхотов: Героям слава! … на нашем канале The Insider Live. Подписывайтесь, ставьте лайки. Подписывайтесь на telegram-канал Александра Невзорова и на канал The Insider .
Александр Невзоров: Да, на эти telegram-каналы главное подписывайтесь. Потому что у нас сейчас это основное информационное оружие.