Marfa Smirnova: Andrey Vyacheslavovich, do you even understand the conditions under which the Trinity will be stored after the physical transfer to the Russian Orthodox Church?
Andrey Kuraev: Let's start from afar. Many church people say: “Well, of course, the icons were painted for the church, the church kept them for centuries – and nothing, the icons were not lost.” Were lost. If ancient icons were safely preserved in our churches, then today we would have thousands of ancient icons. And there are only a few dozen of them. So icons, including revered, miraculous ones, disappear from time to time, are destroyed. And the same icon “Trinity” by Rublev was copied several times back in the Middle Ages.
Now further. I am not an expert on storage conditions, but it is quite obvious that the restoration specialists in the Tretyakov Gallery are better than in the provincial museum of the Trinity-Sergius Lavra. Moreover, this museum is very peculiar. Recently, it has been turned into the patrimony of the monastery, and the abbot of the monastery is also the director of this state museum, receiving his 1.5 million rubles as a monthly salary.
Yes, it is clear that the conditions will be worse. But most importantly, imagine: in the Tretyakov Gallery, the icon is in a special ark, which maintains a special regime of humidity, temperature, plus it performs an anti-vandal function. It was in this sarcophagus, in this ark, that the “Trinity” was brought a year ago for a couple of days to a feast in the Trinity-Sergius Lavra. Again, let's leave aside the question that later the restorers were horrified at the form in which the icon returned back to the Tretyakov Gallery. But we know pictures from those days. The icon in this form simply does not fit into the iconostasis. It was written in size, without the ark. And, accordingly, when it is in the ark, it does not fit into the iconostasis, it sticks out, and this ark is obscured by neighboring icons. In general, the harmony of the iconostasis is violated – such a huge bulge appears, protrudes forward. Therefore, aesthetically it looks ugly.
Second thing. In the Trinity Cathedral of the Trinity-Sergius Lavra, a service goes on all day. Not so that two hours in the morning, two hours in the evening, but the whole day, starting at five in the morning. First, a prayer service for the monks (this is called a fraternal prayer service), and then these monks, in turn, replacing each other, read the akathist to St. Sergius of Radonezh at the shrine with his relics. Cancer with the relics of Sergius is literally two meters from the historical place of the "Trinity" in the iconostasis. Accordingly, very close to this icon is a monk who constantly reads an akathist, and sometimes the people sing along with him. There is no permanent choir, and the church people know many prayers from the akathist by heart and sing along themselves. That is, a group of 20-30 pilgrims all the time stands in this corner and prays.
The fact that the service is constantly performed means that there is no time and opportunity for excursions. Guides will be forced to talk about Rublev's "Trinity" on the street, outside the temple. And people will have to learn something about this icon without seeing it, remembering illustrations from a school textbook. And when tourists go inside the cathedral, this group of worshipers will not let them get close to the icon. Yes, this is technically impossible: there is a solea <elevation of the floor in front of the iconostasis> , there is a fence, a fence that separates the solea from the general temple space. In this common temple space there is a close group of believers and with all their hearts they hate tourists who are not pilgrims and interfere with prayer, you understand. In addition, there is a stream of pilgrims themselves to venerate the relics of St. Sergius. There is no chance for tourists to come closer than four meters. Again, they should look at it in silence. If they have any questions, they should not ask them, but wait until they leave the temple, and then explain on their fingers what exactly they found interesting and what they would like to talk about more.
Further. The temple is dark, it has no windows. He only has slots in the drum, on which stands the dome over the roof of the temple. And experts will tell you why, they will tell you about the second Balkan influence, about hesychasm, about mystical marriage and so on. But a fact is a fact: it is twilight in the Trinity Cathedral, so it is more convenient for monks to pray. They are not going to contemplate these paintings, peer into the details. They are supposed to withdraw into themselves in prayer. And therefore, darkness is a friend not only of young people, but also of monks – for various, however, reasons. If you put a spotlight that illuminates exactly the Rublev icon, then it will violate the atmosphere of the temple. And if this spotlight is not set, then the icon will be invisible.
Marfa Smirnova: According to the art historians interviewed by the editors of our site, "a reasonable compromise in relation to works of religious art can be observed in Rome." Do you agree with this?
Andrey Kuraev: You know, for a long time the most valuable ancient objects of painting were taken from Catholics from churches and placed in temple museums, and their place is taken by copies. It's okay. The church itself understands that this is in its own interests.
Marfa Smirnova: Remembering the story of Matrona, do you think the church will be able to make money on Rublev's Trinity?
Andrey Kuraev: Yes, absolutely right, because the next step will be like this. They will say: “Yeah, since you just want to look at our icon and we take an example from the Catholics, during off-duty hours the entrance to such a historic cathedral is paid. Buy tickets. If you come to prayer – please, from five to six in the morning for free. And the rest of the time you pay. This is a very possible development.
Marfa Smirnova: And for you, this decision related to the transfer of the icon to the Russian Orthodox Church, was unexpected?
Andrey Kuraev: Even the patriarch said that it was unexpected, because he asked for this icon for one or two days. In the documents of the Synod, which took place the other day, the patriarch himself says that he did not expect the president to make such a radical decision – to give it away forever.
Marfa Smirnova: But maybe it was also such a nod from the patriarch? That's why I'm asking you – was there any talk about this at all?
Andrey Kuraev: It is clear that in this respect the appetites of the church and the patriarchate are boundless. Everything that was ever somehow considered ours, we take. The big question is what “ours” means, because there were times when the church was state, and therefore, by and large, there was no distinction between state property and church property. All this was created with state money, kings and princely donations. And in which case the Russian tsars considered themselves entitled to take back these investments and donations. But it was believed that the monasteries are such fireproof safes and banks of the Moscow State. In the event of a famine, war, or some kind of disaster, it is quite possible to seize their stocks of bread, weapons, money, and sometimes remove the bells, because in Russia until the end of Peter's reign there simply were no metal deposits of their own – not precious, but just ordinary metal and copper. It was an import.
Marfa Smirnova: "Trinity" was exhibited once a year in the Church of St. Nicholas in Tolmachi. It is right next to the Tretyakov Gallery. And it did not cause any excitement among the parishioners. Now, when the icon will be handed over to the Russian Orthodox Church with pomp, should we expect a surge of interest and pilgrims?
Andrey Kuraev: Advertising is the engine of trade. Let's say there is a temple of Christ the Savior, and two hundred meters from it there is a temple … Lord, now I forgot its name. In the next alley. Elijah Ordinary, in my opinion. A piece of the robe of the Mother of God was always kept there. And suddenly another piece of this so-called robe is brought with pomp from Greece, placed in the temple of the Savior, and it is declared: for the first time in Russia such a shrine. And there is a line for miles. Yes, she was always two hundred meters away! But this was successfully forgotten. Same with Trinity. For people, all the same, there was the same accessibility both in that temple and in the very hall of ancient Russian painting of the Tretyakov Gallery. Therefore, there was no excitement and now will not be.
Marfa Smirnova: And if we talk about PR, then who benefits from this program? Vladimir Putin, who personally arranged everything, or still Patriarch Kirill and the image of the Russian Orthodox Church?
Andrey Kuraev: I think that everything is very intertwined here, and in the end we were returned to the time of Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich, who was sincerely convinced that the military power of the Muscovite state depended on how many relics he could collect on his territory. It got to the point that he violated the oath that he gave to the monks of Athos. He asked them to give him a particle of the Cross of the Lord for temporary storage. The monks gave it to him, and then the king refused to return it, breaking his word. Because, in his opinion, it was a question of national security. Now, if there is no such shrine in Moscow, then, then, it means that the enemy may turn out to be mystically stronger.
I must say that in Western Europe, of course, there were such ideas: the ruler who has the spear of the centurion Longinus, the spear with which Christ was pierced, will be a very strong ruler, everyone will submit to him. They say that even Hitler believed in it and was looking for this spear. But it's still from the world of magic. The kingdom of Christ is not of this world, and who Christ is with is not determined by those who managed to take possession, often dishonestly, of one or another material shrine.
Marfa Smirnova: That is, Putin can seriously believe that the return of the "Trinity" to the bosom of the church can change the situation near Bakhmut.
Andrey Kuraev: The churchmen convinced him of this. I think that both Patriarch Kirill and Metropolitan Tikhon, a recent interlocutor of Ksenia Sobchak, have been talking to him about this for years. Hence the idea of building the main temple of the Armed Forces with its very strange symbols and strange relics like Hitler's cap, and much more. And the saints who are appointed patrons of various military units and branches of the military. Moreover, it sounds so funny when the Patriarch indicates to the Archangel Michael which troops he should patronize. In patriarchal sermons, the theme is also constantly heard that such and such an icon gave victory to the Russian army in such and such a battle.
Marfa Smirnova: By the way, what do you think about the appearance of Tikhon Shevkunov on Sobchak's channel? This is clearly an appeal to a completely new audience for him.
Andrey Kuraev: Well, that's great. But we have a rare opportunity to look. In February 2022, you and I saw a live broadcast of a meeting of the Security Council, which decides that the Anglo-Saxons will declare war on us and attack us tomorrow. But now we have heard, in fact, NRZB wiretapping in Putin's secret office, where Metropolitan Tikhon meets with him and what they are talking about.
What we heard is only the light version. That is, of course, in a conversation with the president, the metropolitan has the same theses that the West has always hated us, and so on. Of course, the metropolitan, in a conversation with the president, voiced all this in a much harsher form. And Sobchak's is softer, more diluted.
Marfa Smirnova: Is the state currently facing the task of attracting new parishioners to the church?
Andrey Kuraev: The state has a common task of manipulating the population of the country. Each category of the electorate has its own manipulators, including those in cassocks or turbans. They get great pleasure from this and finally feel their great historical mission and relevance.
Marfa Smirnova: The situation with the priest from Lyublino, who was defrocked because he prayed for peace, and not victory, is it possible to say that this is some kind of trend? And will there be even more such repressions in the church in the near future?
Andrei Kuraev: Maybe it won't, because the case of Father John Koval (that's the name of this priest) was the most public, loud and scandalous. The meaning of this action of the patriarch was to intimidate: to intimidate his own clergy – look, there will be no indulgence for anyone. This is fundamental. Therefore, I think that a fair amount of the clergy understood this very well.
But the majority of the clergy already happily prayed for a speedy victory over the crests, Ukronazis, and so on, quite sincerely sharing the mythology of the TV. Among those who grumbled to themselves, I think the majority understood that they should grumble even more quietly, because in the case of Father John, the altar boy of his own church snitched on him, and then this denunciation was supported by the rector.
So that's why even in your family – and we usually say that our parish is a common family, and so on – even family, close, household members can snitch. Therefore, a simple rule for an ordinary campaigner: you have to be careful who I am, nothing depends on me, I have my own family. There are a lot of sayings on this topic in Russian folklore that everyone remembered well in Soviet times: your shirt is closer to your body, you can’t break your butt with a whip, you’re not a warrior alone in the field, and so on.
The other day I went to see a lawyer in Moscow whom we have known for many years. The person, as they say, knows me by face and by name, and more than once I turned to her services. And this wonderful woman says to me, while some document is being printed: “Do you know what it has already come to? It turns out that even priests are against our president, against Russia. How is that possible? You know, I am from a multinational family, my husband is Croatian, and he tells me that if there was the slightest opportunity, he would immediately go to war against fascism, go to defend the Donbass. You know, I am Jewish from all sides in many generations, but I am for Russia, I am for our president.”
In the Soviet years, if you saw a person with glasses and a university education, then you could most likely assume that you were doing the same thing last night – listening to the news on Voice of America. You could easily exchange fresh anecdotes or notes by Vladimir Vysotsky, joke about the general line of the party, and so on. And today it is not so at all. Today, one cannot proceed from the belief that if you have an intellectual or an Orthodox believer, a Christian or even an Old Believer, then he is allergic to Skabeeva. This is wrong.
Marfa Smirnova: Can you tell if there is a large percentage of priests who are not allergic to Skabeeva, as you say, and who are for the fact that we are fighting fascism in the Donbass?
Andrey Kuraev: I think the majority. And what is especially interesting is that ethnic Ukrainians make up a huge part of this majority. If we conduct a corporate-ethnic analysis, then, probably, we will not find another such professional environment in the Russian Federation, where there would be such a large percentage of ethnic Ukrainians. There were certain reasons for this in the post-war years, starting from 1945: a lot of ethnic Ukrainians left Ukraine, including Western Ukraine, and became priests in Russia. And not all of them returned later, when Ukraine became an independent state. And nothing. On the contrary, they are even more enthusiastic ready. They need to convince themselves that their silence, their prayers for the victory of Russian arms, is all right. And therefore they are even, perhaps, even more enthusiasts of the SVO than ethnic Russian priests.
Marfa Smirnova: A very general question: how can a person who serves God, confesses, speaks of the commandment “Thou shalt not kill”, can pray not for peace, but for victory, which is associated with murder?
Andrei Kuraev: Ways to neutralize this commandment are given in the Old Testament. Because the Old Testament says: “Thou shalt not kill,” but in the next book of the Bible it says: “Go and kill” – slaughter the entire population of such and such a city, and so on. That is, holy wars are one of the important phenomena of ancient Jewish history, biblical history, sacred history. And then Christians found there a huge number of precedents and justifications they desired.