Marfa Smirnova: Alexey Alekseevich, hello! I am glad to welcome you to our broadcast. We have been seeing these creepy photos all week, you probably were also horrified by what you saw. Do you know if there will be any health consequences for Elena Milashina and Alexander Nemov?
Alexey Venediktov: I am not an attending physician. This, of course, is purely medical history. If we talk about the consequences, we are faced with a psychological post-traumatic syndrome, obviously. You see that Lena is very cheerful, waving her arms. Any psychologist, psychiatrist will tell you that this is a post-traumatic syndrome. The main thing for us was that they were alive. Then everything is in the hands of doctors. Actually, that's why Dima Muratov decided to evacuate them to Moscow, where, after all, the medical level and possibilities, say, of secondary medicine are higher. It is precisely so that both Alexander Nemov and Elena Milashina enter the ranks.
All in all, it was really terrible. We flew in a very cramped plane, we sat there half a meter apart from each other and looked at it all, I would say, like through a magnifying glass. In general, I would say it was inconvenient, if you understand what I'm talking about. Here's how to talk to a person when he has such scars on his hands? Or bruises, if you like. The doctors who flew with us measured her blood pressure, her heart, and were very worried about what would happen to Lena's intracranial pressure, whether she could be evacuated by plane. There have been many medical adventures. Therefore, all this is not trifles, despite the fact that she behaves courageously and seems to be invisible. And it is visible.
Marfa Smirnova: Wasn't she (or rather, them) evacuated because it was unsafe to stay first in Grozny, and then, apparently, in Beslan?
Alexey Venediktov: And therefore, too, but also for health reasons. You probably noticed when Muratov set the task for me to provide escape routes, as they say, quickly … The story is that the medical reports were different. If the Grozny doctors saw on x-rays that there were fractures in the arm, fingers, and hands on which she was beaten, the Beslan doctors considered this insignificant and removed these splints from her. And so Muratov says: "We need a third opinion." And we decided that the third opinion is Moscow doctors. That is, it was there, but the issue of security, of course, also stood.
At the same time, Alexander and Elena were transported from Grozny to Beslan (110 kilometers by road) accompanied by Chechen officials, in particular the Ombudsman for Human Rights. They were taken to Beslan. And at the same time there was a search for opportunities for transportation to Moscow. It all flickered, I would say. “Let's do it. Where is the plane? – "First to Grozny." “Where can I find a plane for you in Grozny now?” This did not concern Muratov – find it and that's it. While I was looking, during these 15 minutes it was decided that the first evacuation to Beslan.
Vladimir Romensky: Where did you find the plane?
Alexey Venediktov: At Vnukovo-3.
Vladimir Romensky: Was it some kind of private aircraft?
Alexey Venediktov: Absolutely private company. I really don't know how to do such things. We have never flown such things, it is not an easy thing. I made myself a list of, say, ten rich people who, in principle, could have their plane. Since my phone book, Volodya, you know, is quite thick, I decided to call and ask. And I also had a list of ten Russian corporations that I knew also had planes. If it didn't work, it would.
At the very first caller, I received an answer: “You know, Alexey Alekseevich, we have never flown, we did not have our own aircraft in our company, but we have a person who provides such services, commercial ones. He is based in Vnukovo-3. I will give you your phone number. If there are problems, come back to me, I will try to help. So I hung up the phone. Five minutes later, a man called me, said that he represented a company that provides services. What he understands, to whom, what and why. "Let's get started."
I still don't even know the name of the company, you will laugh. Of course, I read it in the Telegram channel, but, on the other hand, why do I need this? Departure at so-and-so from such-and-such an airport. Then there were all the discussions: who should fly, give passports and so on. Therefore, of course, you can find out the name of the company, but for me it is a set of letters. If this person wants, he will say.
Vladimir Romensky: That is, kind people helped.
Alexei Venediktov: Yes, in fact, there are much more good people around – and this case showed it – than evil people. Usually on the air we have evil people who are dissatisfied with everything and criticize everything. This is also true. In general, the day began with the fact that after Muratov called me, when I started to move something there, people began to call me who had not called me since the beginning of hostilities and certainly since the beginning of declaring me a “foreign agent” – they just died what is called … "How to help?" I say: “How to help, how to help … Write requests to Krasnov and Bastrykin. You can, you are deputies. You can, you are deputy ministers. Find out, help. You can, you are comrade lieutenant generals. Please look for ways. It's like in the case of Ivan Golunov, to make it clear.
So yes, good people. I, Volodya, do not treat this with irony at all. I still do not know who paid for this flight, which, in general, is not free, because it is a commercial structure. And when I was already at the end, I mean, before the flight, I asked: “Well, how much do we owe you?” — I received the answer that everything has already been settled. I say: "In what sense is everything settled?" – “Aleksey Alekseevich, I will not talk to you on this subject. There was nothing between you and me. There will be no money relations. This is how it all ended. Although it is clear that Muratov and I have already said that we will have to collect money, look for money, donations, maybe in some way. We don't even know the price.
Marfa Smirnova: Thanks to these people. By the way, about Ivan Golunov. He was also compensated this week. Some unprecedented generosity of our law enforcement agencies and the judicial system. Do you think something similar will happen in the case of Milashina? Will the performers be found? I'm not talking about clients.
Alexei Venediktov: I don't think the performers will be found. It's still Chechnya, it's still a special zone, let's call it that. Although, on the other hand, everything now depends on Ramzan Kadyrov. If he deems it necessary, they will give out performers or people who look like performers. Will not find it necessary – well …
Let me remind you that during the murder of Nemtsov, the federals, acting on the territory of Ingushetia, stormed and captured those who were later convicted of murder. And until now, Ramzan Kadyrov says that these people are innocent, who were convicted by the Russian court for the murder of Nemtsov.
And here all this happened in Chechnya, that is, in the area of responsibility of Ramzan Kadyrov. Roughly imagining Ramzan Kadyrov, what should happen for him to hand over to Moscow the heads of some 10-12 fighters who acted with complete impunity near the airport, which is guarded by all possible and impossible methods?
Vladimir Romensky: Do you think these fighters are law enforcement officers?
Alexei Venediktov: I haven't checked their documents, Volodya, but you and I understand for sure that there are two facts that need to be paid attention to. Fact one: these people knew about the arrival, and this is a very early morning – 5 something in the morning arrival. This means that they had access to the list of passengers, that is, to the booking system, to the so-called "Siren". It's just law enforcement. It is unlikely that any bandits who wanted to rob Lena Milashina for 13 thousand rubles would have had access to this system.
And secondly, everything there, literally everything around the airport, is stuffed with video cameras, stuffed with patrols. Because the airport is always such a vulnerable place… Ramzan Kadyrov always boasted of security, that everything was under control there, a mosquito would not fly by, a bird and a hare would not slip through. And suddenly we are told that the cameras accidentally turned off at that particular time right near the airport! Therefore, it is not clear what … But this could not be either, because, look, if the cameras in the security zone turn off, then the people who watch the camera in real time immediately send a patrol there: something happened. This was not done.
They were beaten for 8-10 minutes, and no one came to the rescue, not a single police car appeared. And they went back to the hospital in the same taxi that they came in, just for a second. That is, there was no patrol. Do you know where the patrol came? In hospital. And they started looking around the room. They were told: “Wait, we were beaten there, not here. What are you looking for here?"
Well, here's a story. Therefore, I think that, of course, these are not random things, but this is a question for the investigators. But let me remind you that Alexander Ivanovich Bastrykin entrusted the investigative actions to the investigative apparatus of the Chechen Republic. What do we still not know about our country, tell me?
Vladimir Romensky: We remember how the cameras were turned off when Oyub Titiev, a Chechen human rights activist, for example, was detained with drugs. Also, the cameras did not work, although everything was always there. Yes, the situation is actually very similar.
Marfa Smirnova: And now Lena and Alexander are under guard? When they are released from the hospital, how will their safety continue to be ensured?
Alexei Venediktov: We do not comment on security issues.
Vladimir Romensky: You spoke about a gray zone, about a special zone – Chechnya. I went there in 2018 for the presidential election. Then Kadyrov personally gave guarantees, and now, nothing happened.
Marfa Smirnova: By the way, they didn't let me into Chechnya once. I mean, the editor-in-chief didn't let go.
Vladimir Romensky: Again, assessing the risks, how was the decision made here? Especially considering that before that Kadyrov directly called Elena Milashina a terrorist.
Alexei Venediktov: So, after the article she wrote two weeks ago, about why, in fact, enmity arose at the front between the Kadyrovites and the Wagnerites (in my opinion, this is an article that deserves, if not a Pulitzer Prize, then exactly the Editorial Board award), she decided, since it was a very objective, balanced article, that she could get to court, at the same time continue to study it, and this does not harm anyone. Well, at the same time she continued to cover the case of Zarema Musayeva.
And she convinced Muratov. I told him to his face that he was mistaken, and I told her to her face already on the plane. Ask me, I would say "no" and that's it. Because, indeed, you are absolutely right, she was declared not by some ministers, but personally by Kadyrov as a terrorist. And even if Kadyrov personally did not take part in organizing this attack, then this announcement – she gets (I know how it works) in certain lists. They see it on the passenger list: "Oh, you bitch…"
Understandable, right? Since there was no cancellation of this … Here is January 2022 – it was the wrong decision, but what can I say now? It's like saying that a woman was raped because she was wearing a short skirt – it's her own fault. No, regardless of how this decision was made, this is a crime that must be investigated and the perpetrators must be punished, right down to the customers.
Marfa Smirnova: You have already mentioned the deputies whom you advised to write a request.
Vladimir Romensky: And to the deputy ministers.
Marfa Smirnova: And to the deputy ministers. But we, apparently, do not specify, again, the names. All the same, there is an opinion that the reaction to this story with Milashina and Nemov is a kind of signal that the system is changing: they reacted, instructed to sort it out, condemned it, and so on. Do you think the system is changing? And most importantly, in which direction, I don’t really understand?
Alexei Venediktov: We can conclude that after the Wagner rebellion, the feds decided some kind of independence for these fighting dogs of Putin – Prigozhin and Kadyrov …
Vladimir Romensky: Martha and I just discussed it in exactly the same terms. I would probably just be shy on the air like that …
Alexey Venediktov: I feel bad with embarrassment. You know, Volodya, this is not my strong point – to be shy. The story is that, probably, maybe, having seen a certain similarity of the situation with private armies (and Kadyrov practically has the Chechen National Guard – this is his private army), they decided to put him in his place a little. Maybe. But this became clear only when the press secretary of the president spoke.
But I will remind you that before that, people who can never be suspected of great love for Novaya Gazeta, Ekho Moskvy, Dozhd are people like deputy Alexander Khinshtein, head of the information policy committee, or Alexei Pushkov , the head of the same committee in the Federation Council, they write to Krasnov … When the well-known deputy Yevgeny Popov from United Russia and Sergey Shargunov from the Communist Party write deputy requests and send telegrams to Bastrykin and the Prosecutor General, respectively, before the statement. When the Ministry of Figures (this is the Ministry of Figures!) makes a statement in support of Elena Milashina! Ministry! We understand that this is actually Mishustin. This, of course, reminded me of the Golunov case. This is an innovation. Inside, they just do it for different reasons.
But the system does not change, Martha, I must disappoint you. This is their internal reaction. These are their internal nuanced disassemblies. “Be careful, man, be careful! This is our Russian woman. It’s you who deal with yours there.” That's what was shown by part of the establishment.
But I can tell you that, to my knowledge, three high-ranking federal officials called Kadyrov before 10:30. Actually, the decision to evacuate from Chechnya to North Ossetia, to Beslan, where, by the way, Milashina is very well remembered (I think that your viewers also remember Yuri Dudy's film Beslan, where Lena performed and she wrote a lot about Beslan) It was a joint decision. Not Dima Muratov. It was the decision of a federal official (let's call him Tatyana Moskalkova) and Ramzan Kadyrov. She told him that, as far as I know. This is how they agreed. Naturally, Muratov and the Committee Against Torture supported this and, perhaps, even initiated it. But the actual decision – from the Grozny hospital to the Beslan hospital – was a decision after a call from Tatyana Nikolaevna Moskalkova. It is a fact.
Vladimir Romensky: As you say, questions to Kadyrov arise within the system. But do questions arise within the system to Putin? After all, first this rebellion, when, obviously, he can no longer hold the whole situation in his hands. Now, it turns out, his other, as you put it, dog is also, under his jurisdiction, such arbitrariness occurs.
Alexei Venediktov: No, of course not. Chechnya has not been under his jurisdiction for a long time.
Vladimir Romensky: I mean, there is Kadyrov, who must obey Putin, but here he can do whatever he wants. Is Putin in control?
Alexei Venediktov: This has been the case since 2000, from the moment when first the elder Kadyrov, and then the younger Kadyrov, they were given Chechnya to govern. I remind you that when, excuse me, the same Zarema Musaeva – where, in Nizhny Novgorod, was she taken? Nobody beeped! They were extradited from one region to another by force. Although according to the protocol, the Chechen police do not have the right. She can only apply to the Nizhny Novgorod police. But they came to a foreign region on their own regional business, took a person, kidnapped him and took him away. And nothing. So there is nothing new here. The question is that, oh, this beating of Milashina and Nemov will weaken Putin – no, of course not.
At the same time, some of the people in Moscow who surround Putin have long been dissatisfied with Kadyrov's independence. What, do you think the finance minister is happy or the interior minister? The center did not participate in this case, but, taking advantage of such activities on the territory subject to Kadyrov, he decided to wag his finger at Kadyrov – look, you are a guy, we are watching you.
That is, these are people who take advantage of this, of course, as a result of the Prigogine rebellion. Because one of them broke off the leash and barked at the owner. Just in case, let's rein in the second one too. It seems to me that this is how it is. They will definitely take advantage of this opportunity. They don't give a damn about Milashina, Nemov, lawyers, journalists. Don't care deeply. It's all pebbles on the way. As there? Camp dust…
Vladimir Romensky: Ice under the major's feet.
Marfa Smirnova: By the way, not everyone is also paying attention to the fact that, it seems to me, an attack on a journalist is, perhaps, something more familiar in Russia, but an attack on a lawyer … True, the day before they poured green paint, again, lawyer Elena Ponomaryova, if I'm not mistaken. But all the same, I don’t remember such a high-profile case as with Nemov from the murder of Markelov and Baburova.
Alexei Venediktov: The federal, as it is called, bar association, which, in general, is quite loyal to Moscow, its head, Volodina, turned (knows whom to contact!) to the head of the Vaino administration, to Bastrykin and Krasnov. True, yes, that's right, Martha, that's a correct remark. I repeat once again that Chechnya has special rules. The government understands this. It reminded me of the Golunov case, because Moscow has always been under the gun, and in the Golunov case in particular. И Чечня всегда под прицелом подзорной трубы.
И это история, которая будет иметь, конечно, последствия, о которых мы даже не будем знать. Мы некоторые последствия не знаем. Вот мы там рассуждаем про многие перемещения, потерю влияния, но, например, мы не знали довольно долго, что после сдачи Херсона генерал Суровикин — где он, алло? — был отключен от прямой связи президента. Если до этого у него был прямой выход на президента через голову министра, то он был потом отключен. Потеря влияния. В армии это знали. И потом его перемещают с поста командующего на замкомандующего. Мы многое не видим. Мы же Византия, это византийский двор. У нас там все потайные двери, шушуканье, выглядывают из-за угла, отравленное питье, укол иглой — вот это всё.
Владимир Роменский: Но само дело, вы думаете, расследовано так и не будет? Поскольку, я так понимаю, опять же, несмотря на все звонки Вайно, несмотря на запросы к Бастрыкину, всё равно этим вопросом будут заниматься следственные органы именно в самой Чеченской Республике.
Алексей Венедиктов: Вот как раз Федеральная адвокатская палата — не московская, а Федеральная адвокатская палата — просит в конечном итоге Бастрыкина забрать дело в центральный аппарат. Бюрократически это, конечно, очень важно. Сейчас надо, правда, говорить, что это такое преступление, которое должен расследовать, независимо от губернатора, от главы республики, центральный аппарат. Пошагово нужно делать таким образом. Это будет, конечно, оскорбление Кадырова, но посмотрим, что федералы решат.
Тоже знак такой. Знаете, в чем еще история нашего византийского двора? У нас бюрократы разговаривают знаками. Им нужно дать сигналы. В заявлении Дмитрия Пескова ничего такого особенного нет — ну, доложил президенту и доложил. Но если бы он доложил президенту и об этом не сказал, это был бы один знак. А если принято решение о том, что публично заявляется, что «президент в курсе и все поручения даны» (цитата) — это другой знак. Для бюрократии другой знак: а черт, это, значит, всё-таки в Кремле, а не в Грозном. И поэтому возможно, что в результате дело заберут и передадут сюда. Потому что дело-то возбуждено уголовное, о нанесении ущерба здоровью средней тяжести, по-моему… Средней и легкой тяжести. Но есть, как тут правильно напомнили мне, — Калой Ахильгов, адвокат, напомнил, что есть 144-я статья, которая говорит о…
Владимир Роменский: О профессиональной деятельности?
Алексей Венедиктов: Конечно! А она ехала осуществлять профессиональную деятельность.
Владимир Роменский: И Немов.
Алексей Венедиктов: Абсолютно. Смотрите, там про журналистов 144-я статья. Она как потерпевшая может требовать возбудить дело, что ей помешали заниматься… А это уголовка уже, с посадкой, что называется. Это уже, возможно, тюремное заключение для тех, кто препятствовал выполнению. Статья, конечно, «спящая», но сейчас, я так думаю, адвокаты «Новой газеты» и Дмитрия Муратова этим займутся. Я думаю, что и Дмитрий Муратов благодаря своему статусу нобелевского лауреата мира тоже не останется в стороне.
Марфа Смирнова: Вы правильно сказали: были даны сигналы — Песков, Москалькова, Попов и остальные депутаты, Хинштейн и так далее. Но все эти, простите, пропагандистские прихвостни (я не знаю, как их еще иначе назвать) никак не отреагировали. Ни Маргарита Симоньян, ни Скабеева всё равно нисколько не уделили этому времени в эфирах федеральных каналов.
Алексей Венедиктов: Я за ними давно не слежу, честно говоря. А если не отреагировали, то тем более не слежу. Пусть это будет фактом их биографии. Точно не факт биографии Елены Милашиной. Факт несолидарности — это факт биографии тех, кто не солидарен.
Владимир Роменский: Я хотел, наверное, закончить на личном вопросе. Алексей Алексеевич, как вы, как Муратов переживаете подобные ситуации, инциденты, когда такие ужасные вещи происходят с вашими журналистами?
Алексей Венедиктов: Смотрите, для Муратова это вещь — скажу страшную вещь — привычная. «Новая газета» потеряла убитыми шесть человек журналистов. Я с ним разговаривал всю эту дорогу с шести утра. Он корил себя, потому что он дал разрешение и отправил ее в командировку. И это было ужасно. Разговаривать с ним было ужасно всю эту историю до тех пор, пока самолет не взлетел из аэропорта Беслана.
Что касается меня, вы знаете, Володя, я давно уже для себя понял, что есть вещи гораздо важнее, чем эмоционально реагировать. Потому что когда ты реагируешь эмоционально, ты теряешь часть продуктивности в решении вопроса. Никакого геройства не было с нашей стороны с Муратовым. Была поставлена Димой, можно сказать, задача — попросил. Как там? «Когда твой друг в крови, a la guerre comme a la guerre, будь рядом до конца». «Можешь обеспечить отход?» — «Могу». И я, абсолютно отключив эмоции, без всяких аханий и оханий… Может быть, злобно… Просто злился.
В общем, меня не удивила эта трагедия, но у меня была задача. Мне нужно было решить задачу, которую решить было невозможно: предоставить возможность в любой момент, когда скажут врачи. В любой момент. И поэтому я абсолютно холодно, спокойно и жестоко занимался, чем мог. Как начальник штаба, организацией. Может быть, потому что это меня, еще раз повторяю, не удивило. Что мы не знаем про свою страну? Что мы не знаем про Рамзана Кадырова? Что мы не знаем про Чечню? Что мы не знаем про военные действия в Украине, или что там происходит? Ну, что мы не знаем? Значит, у нас остается только одно: когда нужна твоя помощь, ты должен максимально эффективно, а значит, максимально хладнокровно, с максимальным эффектом эту помощь оказать. Приблизительно так. Потому что спас одного человека — хорошо, помог другому человеку — еще хорошо, и так далее.
Разговаривал с Милашиной. Извини, ради бога, это же невозможно! Она говорит: «Я сейчас подлечусь и поеду». Туда!
Владимир Роменский: Елена Милашина собирается вновь в Чечню?
Алексей Венедиктов: Да. «Я люблю их, это замечательный народ. Из-за каких-то там подонков я их не буду, — говорит она, — бросать». Абсолютно отмороженная на всю голову. И Немов поедет защищать, я уверен в этом. Понимаете? И когда мы опять вернулись к этому, когда мы с Димой Муратовым (извините, он Дима, он мой друг) на эту тему разговаривали, мы просто как бы сплелись в том, что для нас нет в этой истории чеченцев, осетин, русских, московских и так далее. Есть врачи и есть палачи. И всё, на этом надо остановиться. И не надо говорить «чеченцы», не надо говорить «осетины», не надо говорить «москвичи». Надо говорить «врачи», которые есть всюду, и «палачи» в этой истории, которые есть всюду.
И вот Лена говорит: «Вы не знаете чеченцев». Я говорю: «Лена, ну, куда? Ты с ума сошла, ты идиотка?» Она говорит: «Нет. Там незавершенные дела. И потом, из-за меня сейчас весь чеченский народ будут называть убийцами». Понимаешь, что это за человек? Понимаешь, что это за журналист? Вот с чем мы столкнулись.
Я понимаю, что она говорит. Я на такие благородства не способен, но я понимаю, что она говорит, что она делает. И боюсь вам сказать, но она поедет. И мы ее не удержим — ни главный редактор Муратов, ни ее друзья типа меня, и так далее. Не удержим. Потому что она считает себя чуть ли не виноватой, что из-за нее чеченский народ будет выглядеть как варвары. С ума сойти!
Марфа Смирнова: Мне остается только восхищаться ее смелостью. Наверное, по-женски в том числе.
Владимир Роменский: Не только смелостью. Мне кажется, здесь еще восхищения заслуживает именно доброта к этим людям.
Алексей Венедиктов: Да, она такая. И таких людей очень мало. Но она еще очень профессиональная. Я еще раз скажу, что я ее понимаю. Такие случаи — Володя, ты знаешь, и, наверное, Марфа тоже знает, — бывали в каждой редакции. Когда: «Не надо, опасно». — «Я не доделал дело, там меня ждут люди». Она же делает это не ради каких-то там картонных фигур. Она это делает на самом деле ради чеченцев. Она едет туда не ради москвичей — она это делает ради чеченцев. Вот в чем история. И она уверена, что она права. Это к вопросу о профессионализме, Марфа. Это не только доброта, это еще высочайший профессионализм. Это не просто сумасшедшая, которая едет туда, не знаю, возит бутерброды.
Марфа Смирнова: Нет, я говорила про смелость. А смелость — это часть нашей профессии. Я в этом уверена. Спасибо вам большое, Алексей Алексеевич!
Владимир Роменский: Спасибо большое!
Алексей Венедиктов: Счастливо!
