– Since the beginning of the full-scale invasion, you have been called the "chief psychotherapist of Ukraine", who "helps to fall asleep" to both Russians and Ukrainians. How do you manage to maintain such "neutrality"?
– In psychotherapy there is no nationality, oath and everything else. There is just one person to deal with. I always put on the universal, on the light in people. It is even in those who press the buttons, releasing missiles at us. This does not diminish the need to fight them. But you need to understand that, firstly, among the Russian military there are a lot of people who sympathize with me and my ideas. Secondly, as a professional military man, I was brought up on a code of honor. It forbids humiliating the enemy and prescribes to treat him with respect.
There is light and humanness in the Russian military, even in those who press the buttons, firing missiles at Ukraine
We are dealing with the Russian military as an organized military force. We fight them, we shoot them. And if we are talking about each individual person, then it is possible and necessary to awaken conscience in him.
I have repeatedly addressed the Russian military on YouTube. I urged them to think about how Putin undermines the authority of the Russian army, dishonors the name of the Russian soldier – the liberator of Europe, who took Berlin and put an end to Hitler. Many of them sincerely believe that they are fighting for their Motherland, for Russia, which everyone wants to destroy. I tell them this: “Understand, you are committing a crime. Your noble feelings are being used by Putin and the propaganda machine to commit crimes such as what happened in Bucha or the murders of Ukrainian children.”
The Russian armed machine and Putin as part of it is the enemy. You have to fight with him. But to fight does not mean to humiliate, neglect, mock. We are the European army of a European country. We fight according to the code of honor. And I repeatedly, while still an adviser to Zelensky, called for treating the prisoners and the enemy with the utmost respect. Even though he does evil. And many Ukrainians understand this. The military is full of those who have lost relatives and friends. Fathers who have lost children. Nevertheless, they fight like Europeans: no mockery of the prisoners, the Ukrainians provide medical assistance to the Russians.
— Do Ukrainians really have no total hatred for all Russians?
– We have politicians who are betting on the trauma of the war, they want to slip on this: "All Russians are scoundrels, they cannot be trusted, they are incorrigible, everyone, without exception, is to blame." But these are separate political forces. Normal people understand that Putin is one thing, and the peoples of Russia are completely different. Especially, against the backdrop of the opposition, Russian assistance to our refugees, the "Legion Freedom of Russia", RDK. If all Russians are bastards, then the RDK and the Legion, who fight and die for Ukraine and for our and your freedom, then, excuse me, who?
Therefore, the RDK and the Legion play a huge role. The opposition is , of course, extremely important, strategically important. But politicians or the media understand this. And for an ordinary person, everything is very simple: you take up arms and fight – that means well done.
Even during World War II, Stalin first allowed Ehrenburg to write “Kill a German!”, and then, a year and a half later, said: “Comrade Ehrenburg simplifies.” And that "the Hitlers come and go, but Germany and the Germans remain." Putins come and go, but Russia and Russians remain.
– What about propaganda?
— There is no anti-Russian propaganda in Ukraine. There is anti-Ukrainian in Russia, before that there was anti-Georgian, a lot of anti-Western, but we don’t. The average Ukrainian is not "irradiated with hatred" by people like Solovyov, Simonyan and all this propaganda machine.
We don't need propaganda. We are already highly motivated because we are fighting for the survival of our nation. If I falter today, my children will die – this is a very simple motivation for a Ukrainian soldier.
The motivation of Ukrainian soldiers – "If I falter today, my children will die" – works better than any propaganda
On the first day, February 24 at 7 am, there was a meeting on information policy, and the president said: “We will not use information as a weapon. There will be only military censorship: the plans of our parties, the actions of the troops, and so on.” And we do not use, although we have the right to do so, in terms of domestic and international law.
And even more so to curse the Russians would be a very big mistake. Even if it is cynical, purely Machiavellian, to argue: why drive Russia into a “black box”? An even more terrible monster than now will come out of this box. We just can't afford it.
— And what about those Ukrainians who are against mobilization? Can anti-Russian propaganda motivate them to go to war?
“They don't need her. They need to be made clear that they are not being sent to the front “for meat”. We fight differently. They will be trained, prepared, they will have Western weapons, they will fight under the leadership of a commander who knows what to do, in an army that is winning – now there is a counteroffensive.
And “propaganda of hatred” is vicious. In general, a soldier “rides” very badly on hatred. General Zaluzhny said: “We are not fighting because we are driven by hatred for the enemy. We fight because we are driven by love for those we protect.” This is the right motivation for a soldier. You can't bet on black. Black destroys, first of all, the bearer himself, the one who believes in it.
Putin, first of all, does not feel sorry for the Russian people. He doesn't care that they fall apart – psychologically, morally, mentally. The towers of the Strugatsky people were motivated, but Putin created the towers, which still stupefy and corrupt. This is the problem. He corrupts people, treats them like garbage: 100 thousand there, 100 thousand here.
– How do you feel about the opinion that Russia should forever be protected by a moat with crocodiles?
– This is a false idea. I am her first opponent. It is known from psychotherapy that if you call a person a pig, sooner or later he will grunt. The best way to help a person is to give him a better image of himself. Therefore, we must believe and talk about an open, democratic, free Russia. About Russia, which is no worse than any other country in the world, and which can wake up from the heavy sleep of the Putin regime and return to the free family of nations.
I am opposed to talk about the historical curse of Russia, about its inherent "demonicity". Because it's not a curse, it's a choice. Putin has chosen terror, from which the Russian population suffers in the first place. He terrorizes Russia much more than his neighbors. That is why we must fight for the freedom of Russia, rely on those who want to live differently in Russia, who want the Putin regime to fall and Russia to become a normal country.
Putin terrorizes Russia far more than its neighbors
— How popular is your point of view in Ukraine?
– Pretty popular. It is unpopular with certain political forces and their supporters. Right-wing nationalists – they have no problems. They have always been on excellent terms with the Russian right-wing nationalists. At one time, a lot of Russian right-wing nationalists served in Azov. Ilya Bogdanov, for example.
And the left-wing nationalists, who believed in the “culture of cancellation” and took it as a method, plus suppression, denial, gagging – here they are very fond of shouting that Russia is doomed to a historical curse, that this is some kind of terrible black muck that you can’t deal with, because you yourself will become like that. And they do not notice how they begin to act in the best traditions of the NKVD: shut up those who disagree, ban, cancel, expel, condemn, and so on.
This is a very dangerous trend. We are consistently fighting it, because we cannot allow the country to fall into chauvinism. Paradoxically, this often happens: people who first acted as activists, worked with Western grants, then take the most chauvinistic position. And people, for example, those who fought, understand that Russia is not going anywhere. 10 million Ukrainian citizens have family ties with Russia. So we need to talk.
After a democratic government comes to power in the Russian Federation, we will establish relations very quickly and efficiently. Russia will need to be integrated as much as possible into the West, into Western structures, which is quite possible. It all depends on the pace of the collapse of the Putin regime and the coming to power in Russia of normal, sober, sane people. The recovery of Russian society will not be quick, but what is 5-10-15 years from the point of view of history? A moment, nothing.
After a democratic government comes to power in the Russian Federation, we will establish relations very quickly and efficiently
Let's tell the truth. First, it is really very difficult to resist Putin with his suppression machine. We see the fate of people who are trying to protest. Second, not everyone is like that. "Legion Freedom of Russia" – there are already two battalions and two thousand are in line for selection and verification. It's already a brigade. This is a lot.
Thirdly, a lot of political mistakes are made. The best thing the Russian opposition can do is to create a body of collective representation, which will also include military formations (RDK, "Freedom of Russia") and issue a declaration of mutual recognition. This will immediately increase your political weight, because you will acquire the attributes of statehood. There will be a prospect both in the West and in the eyes of Ukrainian society, and, by the way, within Russia itself. In fact, a government in exile, with its own armed forces.
The best thing the Russian opposition can do is to create a body of collective representation, which will also include military formations
Until this is done. The voices of individual authorities are heard: Navalny, Khodorkovsky, Kasparov… There are petty squabbles, and as a result, no one takes the Russian opposition seriously. If there were a united declaration, a mutually supporting opposition that would become the prototype of the future Russian parliament; plus civil society – a huge stratum that is not going into politics, but influences very strongly, plus the armed opposition – that would be a force. And the problem is not that you are not fighting – you are fighting. The problem is that you are fighting in isolation. You need to unite.
This problem is part of the general Russian culture. Domination and control is a historically formed type of relationship in Russia. The Western type of relationship is completely different – communication and cooperation. This is the culture of the best argument, since the days of Ancient Greece.
If I were to unite the Russian opposition, I would create an ethical control body – a commission that monitors the system of relations: how it is built, declared, how decisions are made. Because it's a subconscious thing. A person in himself does not notice this, even an intellectual with the best intentions. He simply cannot do otherwise, he grew up in this. And he needs to pull himself by the hair into communication and cooperation. The parliamentary principle, the principle of openness – we are building an open Russia, a new, democratic one – is that I can hate you, you can hate me, but we have a common cause, and despite the difference in worldviews, views, a difficult common past, we must work together if there is at least one point of contact. And the entire Russian opposition has it: crush Putin, build a new Russia. This is more than enough.
– Part of the Russian opposition says that it is against the war, but also against reparations and the division of Russia.
– Non-payment of reparations – conservation of the "rightness" of the Putin regime. So Putin was right about something. Moreover, it is the encouragement of revanchist tendencies in society. And in the end, this is the conservation of the Putin regime itself, even if only partially. Do you really want to cancel Putin as a person and the entire Putin system? Or do you not want an open new Russia? Here's the litmus test, here's the test.
Non-payment of reparations – conservation of the “rightness” of the Putin regime
They need to understand that they are under the gun. They will be re-evaluated by their own voters when the Putin regime falls and the truth is revealed. When Khrushchev debunked the cult of personality, many people were shocked. When they realize that Bucha is true, that everything that Putin's army did is true, they will understand the scope of these crimes, many will be horrified. And overrated. And they will go to politicians and ask: "Did you overestimate?" And he'll say, "Well, I don't think we should pay reparations."
Those who speak on the principles on which the Berlin Declaration was signed < the document signed at the meeting of the Russian opposition in Berlin on April 30, 2023 – The Insider> must unite: we definitely condemn the war, of course, Putin must leave, of course – reparations. Kasparov correctly said that reparations are the way to split the elites. We immediately separate the wheat from the chaff. Those who are for the preservation of the system – without Putin, but the system that exploits Russia, strangles and plunders it, does not give Russia a chance to grow – and those who are really for a new Russia.
– Most Russians who fled the war and mobilization cannot imagine how they will return and live within the Z-society from which they left so urgently. Do you see the possibility of a consensus?
– I see, but the condition is the end not even of Putin, but of the regime that he built. Your "bubbles" must be constantly punched – from the inside and outside. Even your opposition cannot come to an agreement, and yet, it would seem, they are all at the same time. It will be much more difficult with the former “Z” members, but it is necessary. This is the challenge. But God does not set unsolvable problems.
– You once said that Putin perceives himself and Russia as a catechon – a state that prevents the triumph of evil and the coming of the Antichrist.
— This is an Orthodox Byzantine idea. It established itself in Russia along with the idea of the Third Rome. It was brought to Putin in a folder by those who shape his picture of the world. These are partly Dugin's ideas, but I see the influence of the ROC figures more. Kitezh-grad, katechon and his personal affection for Stalin as a statesman and historical figure.
He considers the accompanying millions of deaths to be a worthy price for opposing the devil in the face of the collective West. And Ukraine is a traitor, that is, even twice as worse. He really believes in it, that's the trouble. And he can no longer be persuaded. Unless in the Hague prison a serious confessor will come to him. But I would talk to him on this subject as a psychologist, by the way.
– Why, in your opinion, no one made an attempt to kill Putin?
“It’s just that no one gives a guarantee of its destruction. The bunker is for that and the bunker, so that it would not even be destroyed by a nuclear bomb. In addition, it is provoking a nuclear war. The destruction of all mankind is too high a price to pay for Putin's life. Therefore, I would not strongly expect that he would be killed. True, the chances will increase dramatically if he wants to arrange a nuclear war. Then the West, together with China and, I suspect, even with India, will "calm" him. China has repeatedly and unequivocally spoken out about preventing not only the nuclear threat, but even talk about it. And a corresponding declaration was signed in Moscow. True, Putin immediately violated it when, on the fourth day after Xi Jinping's departure, he spoke about the transfer of nuclear weapons to Belarus. The Chinese reacted very negatively.
The destruction of all mankind is too high a price for Putin's life
– Who do you think benefits from the rumors that he is dying, with cancer?
– He may be sick, but with Kremlin medicine, you can get sick for 20 years and catch a cold only at the funeral of the entire Russian opposition. These rumors may be part of unscrupulous propaganda, may be part of the IPSO <information-psychological special operation – The Insider> . And they may be true. There is evidence of quite serious people that he has a set of diseases, after all he is 70 years old. We cannot completely dismiss the possibility of his imminent death from illness.
– You were not going to put forward your candidacy for the presidency if Vladimir Zelensky participates in the elections. But do you plan to monetize political capital?
— I don't have a monetization task. I want to give my country a chance. Ukraine is full of problems. We have a “deep state” here: judges beat people with almost impunity, the sons of majors and “deciders” rape classmates with impunity. People earn on blood, on war. In our country, in general, scum won over 30 years of independence. They managed to create a system that sucks the juices out of Ukraine, milking it like some unfortunate cow. The same thing that you have, and in many post-Soviet states. It's just that we have it with elements of democracy, and you have elements of autocracy.
And we want to defeat all this prosecutor-cop-tax riffraff, because it eats our future. Especially in the face of constant military danger. With such an "effectiveness" of defense policy, we do not have many chances for a sustainable existence in the future. Our main task is to defeat this old system.
Freedom is our national idea, we need to defend a free state, not one in which people's deputies can attack a guy singing Tsoi in the street. These are the main tasks of my activity, even if I am not formally a politician.
Зеленский пришел на этих лозунгах, но две волны ковида плюс война «немного» его отвлекли. Поэтому, пока он президент, я не хотел бы говорить о своих политических амбициях. Он человек, и у него, конечно, есть недостатки, ошибки, иногда крупные. Но сейчас вся поддержка должна быть сосредоточена на нем — ведь он держит на себе «символический капитал» всей Украины — раз. Второе — он Верховный Главнокомандующий, и третье — он глава внешней политики Украины, символ нашего сопротивления.
Пока Зеленский — президент, я не хотел бы говорить о своих политических амбициях
Нельзя опускаться до уничижительной критики. Подрыв авторитета высшего военно-политического руководства во время войны — это прямые действия против национальной безопасности.
Я знаю, как в Украине нервно реагируют на разговоры о моем политическом будущем. Поэтому — не сейчас. Кончится война — поговорим.
